Meghan: I love looking at this topic from such a broad lens, because I’m afraid that when we are in the midst of our everyday life, even when we’re hearing the Prophet stand up and say that the most important thing you can do in your life right now is to gather Israel, it seems that until we step back and realize that this is not anything new, this doesn’t even date back to Joseph Smith and the restoration of the gospel. We’re talking about a legacy that’s thousands of years old, a work that has been that the foundation has been laid for, I mean, you could argue eternity. This is an eternal work that we’re a part of right now. And I think that until we step back and we realize the things that you said, the baptismal font sitting on the back of twelve oxen, and that’s the gateway to heaven. And until we step back and say the work of Salvation, you can water down the responsibility of Ephraim to say, oh, it’s missionary work. And that can sound kind of milk-toast, a little bit boring maybe to people. But when you step back and see, you are actually participating in the fulfillment of covenants that Jehovah made to the most righteous men and women to ever walk the face of the Earth. And you get to be a part of fulfilling his work, right? 

Brother Baron: Well, I would even go further and say that in the title page of the Book of Mormon, Moroni lays out essentially one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon. And one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon is that we would know the covenants of the Lord, that we are not cast off forever, that we’re not stranded, that because of Jesus Christ we can repent and be brought back into His covenant. And that it’s not exclusive, it’s inclusive. The gospel of Jesus Christ is inclusive. I’ll tell you a story. Years ago, I was down in the Los Angeles area, and they asked me to do a tour of a group of people from the University of Judaism around the Los Angeles Temple. And it was great. There was about 35 of them. We went and had this great experience, and then we ended up the steps of the temple, and there was people going in and out of the temple, as you can imagine. Right. But we were there, and I was talking about it. And one woman kind of aggressively said, “I would never believe in a God who wouldn’t let me in his house.” And I said, “Oh, no, God is inviting all of you in His house.” And she said, “Oh, so can I go in right now?” And I said, “Nope. ” And she goes, “Well, then I wouldn’t believe in that God.” And I said, “Can I ask you a question?” She goes, “Yeah.” And I said, “Do you smoke?” She goes, “No, I don’t smoke.” I go, “Do you let people smoke inside your home?” She goes, “I don’t.” And I go, “That’s because it’s your home.” She goes, “That’s correct.” And I go, “To the core of our beings, we believe this is God’s house. And He sets the terms and conditions of who can come in and what the behavior is that would be appropriate there. But he’s inviting anybody will abide that standard that he sets to go in.” And about the whole group was like, wow, cool, we’re down. She was still kind of upset with me. But the idea of the inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. Inclusiveness of the gospel. Right. Both the work on the other side of the veil, the work on this side of the veil is inclusive. It’s not exclusive. And so this idea that we’re not cast off, that we are part of this work to love God’s children, to waste and wear out our lives, to bless them, that’s the beauty of this thing. So, yeah, no, there’s no boring or menial or pedestrian part of the gospel. 

Meghan: So much food for thought. I’m curious about some of the complications that this history has caused with the Middle East and with Israel as a country and as a nation. My understanding is that obviously the tribe of Judah is housed primarily in Israel and in the Israel was a Covenant land that the Lord set apart for the House of Israel specifically. And it’s complicated right now because of the relationships with the other people that also have lived in that land for millennia. And my understanding is that the House of Israel obviously came through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and a lot of the people in the Middle East that are related come through Esau, is that correct?

Brother Baron: Ishmael and Esau and the Midianites through Keturah. So it’s even more complicated Ishmael theoretically are the Arabic Peoples, but you have Midianite Peoples and you have other relatives. Lot, for example, has seed there that’s Abraham’s nephew, and those were the Ammonites and the Edomites. It’s a complicated thing. Okay. So it’s Esau, Ishmael, it’s Lot’s children. It’s a lot. .

Meghan: Yeah. I feel like in trying to understand conflicts in the Middle East, we tend to look, we try to go back in history to a degree, and some people go back to the 1960s or the 1940s, and it’s like, no, you need to go back to what is it, 3000 C? Is that when Abraham was?

Brother Baron: Probably about 1800-2000bc. Yeah. I mean, whenever we’re talking those dates, I always say give or take 100 years. 

Meghan: Right. Who knows, based on the records and the things that we’re keeping. But the reason that I ask is, what do you feel like we, as members of the restored Church, need to understand about the House of Israel and the complicated history there so that we can better comprehend some of the modern day conflicts that we see and be more compassionate and understanding so that we can be a blessing to those people who are in those kinds of situations as well, where there is so much conflict and such a strange and complicated history? 

Brother Baron: Well, I’ll give you an answer as it relates to how I saw it modeled at the Jerusalem Center. So the BYU Jerusalem Center sits, I believe, in the single best place in the Middle East. It’s on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Old City. It is, absolutely, And I’m saying this not with hyperbole. I’m saying it as it is miraculous, a marvelous work and a wonder that the Jerusalem Center is where it is. Okay. It is drop dead gorgeous. The view is amazing. It is considered a gorgeous building by everyone there. And here’s what a lot of people don’t understand. Number one, the Jerusalem Center, the day to day operations is run by an Israeli Jew, not a Latter-day Saint, named Iran Hayett. And Mr. Hayett is an Israeli Jew. His assistant Tofik Ali is a Palestinian, and everyone who works there at the Jerusalem Center is an Israeli Jew or a Palestinian. And the only people who are Latter-day Saints are the visiting faculty and the director of the faculty who’s also visiting there. And so what I believe is happening there, and it works in harmony, and there’s a spirit there. It’s powerful. So people come to visit the Jerusalem Center all the time. Tour groups come, Latter-Day Saint tour groups, other tour groups come. And everyone there is like, “This is incredible. What do we feel here? What is going on here?” And I think the Lord is saying, I know how to do this. I can do this. We can have Palestinians and Jews in harmony here, in peace here. It is literally incredible. And so the BYU Jerusalem Center does humanitarian aid both to Palestinians. It does it to Jewish groups that are needy in Israel. It does it to places like Ahman and Egypt and Syria. It’s involved in all of those things. I’ll tell you another interesting thing. In the Jerusalem district, so that’s the stake. It’s not a stake, it’s a district. So it includes Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Bersheva and Bethlehem. Those are the five units, the branches. You cannot speak Hebrew there or Arabic. You have to speak English. And when President Nelson came to the Holy Land in the early part of 2018, he will always refer to it as the Holy Land. And he does it because the children of Abraham, like you mentioned, and the other children of these prophets and ancient people are our relatives. They’re our clan. And we don’t want to ostracize God’s children no matter who they are. And so while the state of Israel is a Jewish state and we support that, that’s not to say it’s perfect or that things couldn’t be better. And we learned that again from the Jerusalem Center, that the Palestinians and the other people who are not Israeli Jews are treated amazingly, incredible work in harmony there and are an example to the entire state of Israel and the Middle East. So that was a long answer. But it’s really, I think, symbolic of what needs to be happening there as opposed to all the division, all the strife, all the controversy, all the hate, all the war that’s gone on. 

Meghan: Gosh, I get chills listening to you because it is miraculous. That’s the perfect word that you used. And I think that when I hear you talking about this, I feel like this is a type, this is a type of what the Lord is going to do. And I love how you said the Lord can do His own work. And regardless of the conflict and the contention and the ongoing struggle, that is reality for that part of the world, the Lord still knows. He knows His children, and we are all still children of God. 

Brother Baron: Right. And I think you should also know and I have to note, Elder Holland, Howard W. Hunter, LeGrand Richards, obviously, other prophets and Apostles, including Spencer W. Kimball, who was absolutely integral in actually his revelatory insight on where the temple would be built. I think you might know the story, but it’s on the Mount of Olives. Right. And I don’t know if you know this, but in Israel, you can’t build a house, you can’t build anything without the Ministry of Archaeology. Essentially, they have to put a grid on the land and then stick tubes in and pull out dirt to see if there’s archaeological things there. Right. Like if there’s a tooth or a shard from pottery or a hair or a manuscript, boom, you can’t build there. Right. And so there was huge opposition to, as you can imagine, from Judaism, because we’re a proselyting Church. Right. We are a proselyting Church. So we want to build the Jerusalem Center. President Kimball said, this is where it’s going to be. And I mean, there’s just this uproar. It’s even bigger than I’m making it. Like, again, I’m not speaking an exaggerated or I’m not embellishing. It’s ripping the society apart down there in Israel. So they do this archaeological dig on the Mount of Olives. Now you’ve got to think and a lot of them are counting on this is the Mount of Olives. I mean, we’re talking 3000 years of biblical history, for sure. There’s going to be a shard or a tooth or a manuscript or a hair. So the site where the Jerusalem Center is, they stick the things in, they go do the conveyor belt. They’re looking – nothing, not one thing. And so I have this view that these angels the night before we’re throwing all this stuff away. Then we made an agreement with the state of Israel that we wouldn’t proselyte. And a lot of them didn’t believe us. They thought, no, it’s not going to happen. But you have to understand, when people come to the Jerusalem Center, and I’m not kidding, they’ll say, what is this we feel? And we’ll say, we’re so grateful you’re here. And they’ll say, can we get a copy of The Book of Mormon? No. Well, what’s your website right now? We’ve made an agreement with the state of Israel, we’re not going to proselyte. So we’re not going to tell you what the website is. Can we get a pamphlet? No. I mean, it’s that serious. It’s that serious. 

Meghan: Yeah. That’s more strict than what I would think of as just not proselyting, like, that’s. not proselyting… that’s …what stricter terms are there? We can’t proselyte in China. Right. But we can do some of that, we could share a Book of Mormon if we wanted to or if someone asks.

Brother Baron: But here’s the beauty, Meghan. Here’s the power. So around June of 2019, we take the students to the , which is under the Western Wall. So you go all the way to the base of the Western Wall and you go all the way to length and back, okay? But you have to have an Israeli guide. So normally we just do the guiding. But in this case, the state of Israel requires that we have an Israeli guide. So we had an Israeli guide in June of 2019. I had this Rabbi that went with us, and he was an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, an older gentleman, spoke perfect English and Hebrew. And anyway, did a phenomenal job and we got done. And he said to me, he goes, “I need to talk to you. ‘ So I come up to him and I’m like, “Yeah, what can I do?” And he says, “Let me tell you something.” He said, “35 years ago, I protested the Jerusalem Center. I picketed, I wrote letters, I contributed money, I made phone calls, I did everything so it wouldn’t be built. He goes, 35 years later, he looks at me and says, Your students are the best, your students are the brightest, and your Church has 100% kept its word. I’m the greatest advocate for your Church.” And then I thought, that was not me soliciting him, that was him volunteering this to me. And I thought to myself, how does the Lord work? We kept this promise of not proselyting, but people in Israel love us. Everyone knows who we are. Everyone respects us, and they absolutely love us. Why? Because prophets of God, under the direction of the Spirit, made this agreement. That would seem ironic. But then in the end becomes the means by which the entire Middle East thinks we’re amazing. In the Hebrew Bible, in the Old Testament, you have the tribes. Okay. So in Genesis, you have blessings that are given to the twelve tribes. And then again in Deuteronomy, Moses gives blessings to the twelve tribes. I would say the three or four tribes, where it seems clearest, is Judah, Ephraim, Manasseh and Levi. So in the Old Testament, clearly, Levi has some very specific responsibilities and restricted responsibilities relating to the priesthood and their responsibilities as Levites and Levitical Priesthood holders to carry out some of the work of the Temple. Right. And the work of the altar, the work of the lava and then lighting the menorah keeping the shewbread and the incense done. And then once a year, the high priest going in on Yom Kippur to the Holy Holies. Okay, so Levi has that role. Judah becomes a kingly role, and they become the line of Kings down to the Savior. Joseph doesn’t I mean, outside of Joseph, who was sold into the Egypt, the Joseph, the Ephraimites in the Old Testament kind of don’t live up to the highest standard. They’re scattered with the ten tribes. And of course, prophesied the stick of Ephraim is going to come forth Lehi in his family, etc. And so when people ask me, I’m from the tribe of this or I’m from this tribe, what’s my role? Our role is to co-partner with Ephraim, which is the lead tribe now to gather Israel. And that I believe that as we approach the Millennium and into the Millennium, that our particular roles in particular tribes will be made manifest. But right now, my primary responsibility is to partner with Ephraim, to gather Israel. 

Meghan: I love that. Going back a little bit when you were talking about Levi. So I am aware of some of, as you mentioned, some of the temple responsibilities, but I recall that the tribe of Levi was also mentioned in some restoration revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants. First off, would you share what that revelation is, what the role of Levi is as was restored and revealed to Joseph Smith and as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants? And then also are we seeing the tribe of Levi step into that role in a significant way?

Brother Baron: So section 13 of the Doctrine and Covenants is this interesting verse where John the Baptist lays his hands on Joseph and all over his head and gives him the Aaronic priesthood and says, this priesthood will be on the Earth until the sons of Levi offer an offering in righteousness. Right. And a lot of people are like, oh, man, so what’s going on there? Well, section 84, the Doctrine and Covenants, which is really the first I would say detailed…It’s not that priesthood isn’t brought up before that or keys aren’t brought up before that. That section 84 is really the first place we’re getting laid out a more blueprint of priesthood. I mean, section 20 is about the organization of the Church. No question. Section 84 starts to go into some of the doctrine. And in section 84, you have the famous Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. Right. And the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood has this fascinating line that says, for whoso is faithful under the obtaining these two priesthoods, Aaronic and Melchizedek and the magnifying, their calling. And now notice this – are sanctified by the Spirit under the renewing of their bodies. And then the very next line says they become the sons of Moses and of Aaron. So I’m from the house of Judah. That’s my line. But when I became a Melchizedek, Aaronic priesthood and a Melchizedek priesthood holder, and I magnify my calling, then that calling and that magnification of the calling. If I do that, the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood now tells me I’m not just from the house of Judah, I’m Levi now. Right. They become the sons of I’m a son of Moses and of Aaron. 

Meghan: And that means you are of Levi. Is that what that means?

Brother Baron: Well, all people from Aaron are from Levi. Aaron and Moses are both Levites. They come from Levi. Okay. And Aaron, his posterity specifically, are priests. So they have a priestly function, whereas the other tribes who are descendants from Levi have more of what we would consider a Deacon/Teacher responsibility. So they’re setting the Tabernacle up. They’re taking the Tabernacle down. They’re carrying certain vessels. Right. They’re those people. But Aaron and his sons, they actually offer sacrifices, the altar, they do ritual washings, they go into the temple proper under certain circumstances. And so as a Melchezedek priesthood holder, if I’ve obtained them faithfully, if I’m righteous, if I’m keeping the Commandments, then I’m sanctified by the spirit and in the name of my body, I become a son of Moses and of Aaron. I am a Levite. Now. That’s the promise of the oath and Covenant of the priesthood.

Meghan: That seems to be how it goes, right? All the older siblings are left out. And I’m an oldest child, so I can feel bitter about that. I love that thought of inclusivity. And it reminds me also that the God that we worship is one of abundance. I think that we sometimes forget that. Again, studying Come, Follow Me. And you hear of the serpent beguiling Eve. And he said, has God not said that you can eat of every tree of the garden? Right. And just the phrasing of that question, we automatically look to the restriction. Oh, well, no, he said, I couldn’t go, I couldn’t eat of this tree, when in reality, God is wanting us to eat of every tree of the garden with the standard that there is one tree that we avoid. 

I love that thought of inclusivity. And it reminds me also that the God that we worship is one of abundance. I think that we sometimes forget that. Again, studying Come, Follow Me. And you hear of the serpent beguiling Eve. And he said, has God not said that you can eat of every tree of the garden? Right. And just the phrasing of that question, we automatically look to the restriction. Oh, well, no, he said, I couldn’t go, I couldn’t eat of this tree, when in reality, God is wanting us to eat of every tree of the garden with the standard that there is one tree that we avoid.

Brother Baron: Right. But there’s a timing issue, too. In other words, He actually might want us to eat up every tree, including that tree, but according to His will and within the bounds He has set. But they violated agency by going outside those bounds and then received consequences which ended up being, of course, the salvation of humankind. But the point being is that your point of God being a God of abundance, you can take the law of chastity. It’s a timing issue. I always say in class, I always say, talk about law of chastity. On the one side, people will say it’s nasty, it’s wrong, it’s bad. On the other side, they’ll say, no, do it whenever, all the time. And I’m saying Satan wins on both ends. But when we do it within the bonds that God has set, it’s ordained of Him, it’s sanctifying, it ennobles us, it brings us closer to God. It’s one of the great blessings of mortality. In other words, again, he is offering us, like you said, in abundance, all these things according to his timetable, within the bounds he has set. And then there’s blessings. 

Meghan: Endless blessings. Well, and tying this all back to Ephraim and the roles and responsibilities of the last day, I think from this lens, it would be limiting to say that there is anything disappointing about being a part of this tribe because we are helping execute the Lord’s inclusivity and the Lord’s abundance by participating and doing the work of Salvation.

Brother Baron: Without question. And going back to your point, if I could go to the Old Testament again. So the Lord set up the Tabernacle, which becomes the temple and becomes the center of Israel communal life. Literally, the Tabernacle is downtown. I think it’s interesting to counterfeit downtown is now merchandise, it’s business district. But downtown in the house of Israel was the temple. And then by Revelation, you were set up around the Tabernacle. So the Levites, the tribe of Levites, encircled the entire Tabernacle. Okay. So they encircled it symbolically. Clearly, if you want to go back to the presence of God, you got to go through his authorized servants. And then Ephraim and the children of Rachel, by the way, Ephraim, Benjamin and Manasseh, they’re all extreme west end of the Tabernacle. And Ephraim is right in the center, the closest to the Holy of Holies. So Ephraim is on the west end. And then Judah is right on the east end right in front of the door. So again, back to the symbols. Who do you want guarding the gate? Do you want a lion or an ox? Well, you want a lion guarding the gate. And so Judah is at the gate. Jesus also is from the tribe of Judah. He is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Right. And so I think it’s super fascinating where people are in relation to God’s temple and his presence and who’s closest to the Holy of Holies? Ephraim.

Meghan: I love how you’re painting the picture of how we regardless of what tribe we’re from, we all have an integral role to the work that our Heavenly Father is doing. And each role is so beautiful. You could say Ephraim is leading out and Ephraim is the leader, especially in the work that’s taking place right now. But you can’t say that one is better than the other. 

Brother Baron: No. And I would even say this, and I know, I think you’ve experienced this, and I think maybe many people listening experience this, but when you fulfill whatever role you’re asked to fulfill in God’s work, then you have the companionship of the third member of the Godhead that’s associated with that, what’s better than that? Like, who cares? So this goes back to whatever it is you’re doing. And I think what President Nelson is doing in the First Presidency is perhaps deemphasizing the visibleness of Church callings and reemphasizing a home-centered, Church supported gathering of Israel that we all participate in. And that is really the work of God. So I always say whenever we’re aligned with the work of God, what’s the work of God to bring the past, the immortality, eternal life of man? Whenever I’m in alignment with that, no matter what my calling is, then I have the Holy Ghost. When I dis-align myself from that and separate myself from that, to that degree, I start to lose that peace, that power, and the companionship of the Holy Ghost. 

Meghan: And I would take that even broader. I think we’ve been talking in terms of Church callings and the responsibilities that we might serve in our world and our stake in these various organizations. But I feel like a big part of rising to the occasion of the role that we are asked to play is making this a more integral part of our everyday life. And not just saying, well, I’m fulfilling my responsibilities because I’m serving in this call, although that’s an important part of it. And we should do the best that we can, as you said, regardless of what our calling is. But taking that a step further to say, through the guidance of the Holy Ghost, I want to know what the Lord would have me do on a daily basis that is participating in the work of Salvation. Right. And the possibilities then become absolutely endless. 

Brother Baron: Right. And in your life, Meghan? I mean, you’ve got three little kids and you have roles and responsibilities with them, that somebody in a different phase of their life might be able to do different things, one’s not more important than the other. And like you said, you’re going to be guided and directed what we can do. The technology available to us now in terms of being able to gather Israel on both sides of the veil via whether it’s contacting people via Facebook or doing family history or web indexing, whatever you want to do, you can do it now, literally. You don’t need a calling. You could be gathering Israel indexing, doing family history, doing missionary work without any kind of official formal calling, as guided by the Spirit and be as impactful as anyone.